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	<title>Comments on: On socialization and learning where we fit in the world</title>
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	<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/</link>
	<description>Life more abundantly</description>
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		<title>By: Crimson Wife</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11712</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimson Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 01:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11712</guid>
		<description>My just-turned-7 year old mortified me a couple weeks ago when she asked very loudly in the auto repair shop shuttle driven by a very nice Latino gentleman, &quot;Mommy, why are all people who drive shuttles &amp; taxis &lt;i&gt;ethnic&lt;/i&gt;?&quot;

Somehow she&#039;d picked up on the use of &quot;ethnic&quot; as code for &quot;non-white&quot; even though AFAIK neither DH nor I do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My just-turned-7 year old mortified me a couple weeks ago when she asked very loudly in the auto repair shop shuttle driven by a very nice Latino gentleman, &#8220;Mommy, why are all people who drive shuttles &amp; taxis <i>ethnic</i>?&#8221;</p>
<p>Somehow she&#8217;d picked up on the use of &#8220;ethnic&#8221; as code for &#8220;non-white&#8221; even though AFAIK neither DH nor I do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11711</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11711</guid>
		<description>Yes, you are right Circle Reader.  And I didn&#039;t mean to imply that this is only occurring in school.  My point is that this is part of socialization, just as strong a part of socialization as the &quot;learning about difference&quot; people want it to be about.

It is inevitable, but I do believe children need parents or other adults in close proximity to help guide them through how to handle such situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, you are right Circle Reader.  And I didn&#8217;t mean to imply that this is only occurring in school.  My point is that this is part of socialization, just as strong a part of socialization as the &#8220;learning about difference&#8221; people want it to be about.</p>
<p>It is inevitable, but I do believe children need parents or other adults in close proximity to help guide them through how to handle such situations.</p>
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		<title>By: JJ Ross</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11703</link>
		<dc:creator>JJ Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:29:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11703</guid>
		<description>When I was a kid this would have been &quot;hey, did you know you&#039;re adopted?&quot; -- translation, you&#039;re not who you think you are and you&#039;re less worthy and secure here than I am am.

Doesn&#039;t matter what the words are or where they come from or even if they are factually true or false. It&#039;s not about socialization and learning to get along or even learning to respect and celebrate cultural diversity.

It&#039;s power of story.  Who am I and why am I and who loves me, how should I live and what does it all mean?

I agree this is not for schools or peers to determine!  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was a kid this would have been &#8220;hey, did you know you&#8217;re adopted?&#8221; &#8212; translation, you&#8217;re not who you think you are and you&#8217;re less worthy and secure here than I am am.</p>
<p>Doesn&#8217;t matter what the words are or where they come from or even if they are factually true or false. It&#8217;s not about socialization and learning to get along or even learning to respect and celebrate cultural diversity.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s power of story.  Who am I and why am I and who loves me, how should I live and what does it all mean?</p>
<p>I agree this is not for schools or peers to determine!  <img src='http://roscommonacres.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: CircleReader</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11705</link>
		<dc:creator>CircleReader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11705</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re certainly right that this child did not learn to be offended at &quot;Mexican&quot; from &lt;em&gt;Dora the Explorer&lt;/em&gt;, so your question is a good one: where did that idea come from? Having grown up in the hyper-segregated city of Chicago, I can say that &quot;dirty Mexican&quot; was an established term of abuse, almost a single word in some neighborhoods; and while it was not a term we used or even thought much about [we should have!], it did color my perceptions &amp; attitudes (for instance, when choosing between Latin &amp; Spanish for language classes).

Everybody struggles with the pain attached to words that try to nail us down (by ethnicity, gender, appearance, or whatever), and there&#039;s good reason why we seek out words that are not so closely attached to pain. Part of this involves struggling, both as children and as adults, to find the right words for oneself &amp; one&#039;s community. That this seems absurdly &quot;PC&quot; to some (&amp; occasionally is so) is probably inevitable, but the people who complain often haven&#039;t felt the pain, or are taking more account of their own.

I&#039;d agree that humans are fundamentally social, so I think it&#039;s a bit of a jump to claim that kids teaching each other about proper language is purely a &quot;school socialization&quot; thing. Yes, it would have been a good moment for a parent or teacher to step in &amp; help the kids think through the meaning of &quot;Mexican,&quot; but homeschooled kids can teach each other questionable things as well (an episode of &quot;bombing Iraq&quot; games on a playground full of homeschoolers comes to mind). In both cases, the kids may teach the wrong lesson, but eventually the adults will have some interactions with them that help correct the misconceptions. At least, that&#039;s what we hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re certainly right that this child did not learn to be offended at &#8220;Mexican&#8221; from <em>Dora the Explorer</em>, so your question is a good one: where did that idea come from? Having grown up in the hyper-segregated city of Chicago, I can say that &#8220;dirty Mexican&#8221; was an established term of abuse, almost a single word in some neighborhoods; and while it was not a term we used or even thought much about [we should have!], it did color my perceptions &amp; attitudes (for instance, when choosing between Latin &amp; Spanish for language classes).</p>
<p>Everybody struggles with the pain attached to words that try to nail us down (by ethnicity, gender, appearance, or whatever), and there&#8217;s good reason why we seek out words that are not so closely attached to pain. Part of this involves struggling, both as children and as adults, to find the right words for oneself &amp; one&#8217;s community. That this seems absurdly &#8220;PC&#8221; to some (&amp; occasionally is so) is probably inevitable, but the people who complain often haven&#8217;t felt the pain, or are taking more account of their own.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d agree that humans are fundamentally social, so I think it&#8217;s a bit of a jump to claim that kids teaching each other about proper language is purely a &#8220;school socialization&#8221; thing. Yes, it would have been a good moment for a parent or teacher to step in &amp; help the kids think through the meaning of &#8220;Mexican,&#8221; but homeschooled kids can teach each other questionable things as well (an episode of &#8220;bombing Iraq&#8221; games on a playground full of homeschoolers comes to mind). In both cases, the kids may teach the wrong lesson, but eventually the adults will have some interactions with them that help correct the misconceptions. At least, that&#8217;s what we hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawna</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11708</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11708</guid>
		<description>P.S.  To clarify--while I raised my 2nd son to appreciate both is American and Mexican cultural heritage, my oldest--no Mexican American son-- also learned to appreciate the Mexican culture as well... more for its own sake than as a part of who he was/is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.  To clarify&#8211;while I raised my 2nd son to appreciate both is American and Mexican cultural heritage, my oldest&#8211;no Mexican American son&#8211; also learned to appreciate the Mexican culture as well&#8230; more for its own sake than as a part of who he was/is.</p>
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		<title>By: Shawna</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11707</link>
		<dc:creator>Shawna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11707</guid>
		<description>Your post made me laugh. I  live in California--highly Mexican and Mexican American in population, and often culture. Yes, Mexican has become a dirty word--but more for those using it than those who it is applied.

I also laugh because my children are Mexican American, with the exception of my oldest son. I raised my 2nd son to be very proud of both his Anglo and Mexican heritages: I cook both food, listen to music from both cultures in both languages, I have books in both English and Spanish, he watches both Spanish and English news broadcasts, I have both languages spoken in the home to the best of my very limited ability, I discussed both traditions and holidays throughout his grouping up.

Then enters my step children, more Mexican American than my son as both their parents are of Mexican descent, where my son only has a Mexican father... and they used the M word against my son as an insult (which I found humorous to an extent.) When I tried explaining that they also were Mexican they were appalled and denied it venomously! They were GERMAN they had been told by their aunt (whom found it funny)... and they believed it. They were 6 and 7 yrs old.

I had to talk with my husband about it, and about his sister&#039;s false information. These children needed to be aware of their heritage and be  proud of it as well, not embarrassed nor ashamed. It took awhile, but they came around to accepting they were Mexican American and to appreciate that, but I think they still see themselves as something different in some way.

You see, many Mexican Americans try very hard to distance themselves from the stereotypical Mexican image, so much so as to almost deny their own ethnicity. I don&#039;t see this as much with other &quot;hispanic&quot; cultures, but I definitely see with the Mexican one.

As for assimilation rather than appreciation--yes, the schools are awful for trying to see everyone as the same rather than appreciating the differences. And it most definitely leads to this confusion and embarrassment and disregards for other ethnic/cultural groups.

We try hard in this family to see and appreciate the cultural differences. To laugh at them at times, borrow from them, to revel in them... but never to melt them into something new and American. The differences are what make the relationships so interesting and great... and often eye opening! We have been fortunate enough to have Mexicans, Germans, Yugoslavians, Russians, Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Canadians, Persians, Jews and Italians as family and friends... and we love the diversity! Recognizing and appreciating our differences and even our similarities... but schools would have the kids not discuss these differences for fear of offending someone. Who says the differences are bad, I wonder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post made me laugh. I  live in California&#8211;highly Mexican and Mexican American in population, and often culture. Yes, Mexican has become a dirty word&#8211;but more for those using it than those who it is applied.</p>
<p>I also laugh because my children are Mexican American, with the exception of my oldest son. I raised my 2nd son to be very proud of both his Anglo and Mexican heritages: I cook both food, listen to music from both cultures in both languages, I have books in both English and Spanish, he watches both Spanish and English news broadcasts, I have both languages spoken in the home to the best of my very limited ability, I discussed both traditions and holidays throughout his grouping up.</p>
<p>Then enters my step children, more Mexican American than my son as both their parents are of Mexican descent, where my son only has a Mexican father&#8230; and they used the M word against my son as an insult (which I found humorous to an extent.) When I tried explaining that they also were Mexican they were appalled and denied it venomously! They were GERMAN they had been told by their aunt (whom found it funny)&#8230; and they believed it. They were 6 and 7 yrs old.</p>
<p>I had to talk with my husband about it, and about his sister&#8217;s false information. These children needed to be aware of their heritage and be  proud of it as well, not embarrassed nor ashamed. It took awhile, but they came around to accepting they were Mexican American and to appreciate that, but I think they still see themselves as something different in some way.</p>
<p>You see, many Mexican Americans try very hard to distance themselves from the stereotypical Mexican image, so much so as to almost deny their own ethnicity. I don&#8217;t see this as much with other &#8220;hispanic&#8221; cultures, but I definitely see with the Mexican one.</p>
<p>As for assimilation rather than appreciation&#8211;yes, the schools are awful for trying to see everyone as the same rather than appreciating the differences. And it most definitely leads to this confusion and embarrassment and disregards for other ethnic/cultural groups.</p>
<p>We try hard in this family to see and appreciate the cultural differences. To laugh at them at times, borrow from them, to revel in them&#8230; but never to melt them into something new and American. The differences are what make the relationships so interesting and great&#8230; and often eye opening! We have been fortunate enough to have Mexicans, Germans, Yugoslavians, Russians, Romanians, Serbs, Italians, Canadians, Persians, Jews and Italians as family and friends&#8230; and we love the diversity! Recognizing and appreciating our differences and even our similarities&#8230; but schools would have the kids not discuss these differences for fear of offending someone. Who says the differences are bad, I wonder?</p>
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		<title>By: Dana</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11706</link>
		<dc:creator>Dana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11706</guid>
		<description>Me, neither.  That&#039;s why it took me by surprise.  And maybe it is the effect of a privileged upbringing, but I&#039;ve always found racial slurs against whites sort of comical.  The one time someone actually called me a honkey, I couldn&#039;t say I was exactly insulted.  Certain words used against women can, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me, neither.  That&#8217;s why it took me by surprise.  And maybe it is the effect of a privileged upbringing, but I&#8217;ve always found racial slurs against whites sort of comical.  The one time someone actually called me a honkey, I couldn&#8217;t say I was exactly insulted.  Certain words used against women can, however.</p>
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		<title>By: mrs darling</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11710</link>
		<dc:creator>mrs darling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11710</guid>
		<description>Oops  I meant &quot;Mexican&quot;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops  I meant &#8220;Mexican&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: mrs darling</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11709</link>
		<dc:creator>mrs darling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11709</guid>
		<description>I guess I didnt know Mecican was a racial slur either. Poor kids. Adults can sure mess things up for innocent children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I didnt know Mecican was a racial slur either. Poor kids. Adults can sure mess things up for innocent children.</p>
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		<title>By: Mia</title>
		<link>http://roscommonacres.com/2009/10/on-socialization-and-learning-where-we-fit-in-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-11704</link>
		<dc:creator>Mia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 12:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://principleddiscovery.com/?p=1266#comment-11704</guid>
		<description>Regarding the library scene, you forgot &quot;honkey&quot; and &quot;cracker&quot; in your list of racial epithets!  ;)

I wasn&#039;t aware that &quot;Mexican&quot; was a dirty word...I guess we&#039;ve all learned something today.

Regarding Uppercase Woman&#039;s daughter&#039;s experience, I can relate.  This happened to our oldest daughter AND our middle daughter - at homeschool co-op and at church.  Very sad situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the library scene, you forgot &#8220;honkey&#8221; and &#8220;cracker&#8221; in your list of racial epithets!  <img src='http://roscommonacres.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t aware that &#8220;Mexican&#8221; was a dirty word&#8230;I guess we&#8217;ve all learned something today.</p>
<p>Regarding Uppercase Woman&#8217;s daughter&#8217;s experience, I can relate.  This happened to our oldest daughter AND our middle daughter &#8211; at homeschool co-op and at church.  Very sad situation.</p>
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